The fight for service and repair information.

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  • brad_m
    Member
    • Dec 2012
    • 42

    The fight for service and repair information.

    After being told not so politely from a few dealers that workshop manuals are not available for sale, I started looking at were we stand legally on the issue.


    The ACCC basicly told me they wouldn't help and provided me with other options or contacts.

    I figured that the Motor Trades Association was the next best option to find out some info. There I found a link the 'AAAA' Australian Automotive Aftermarket Association.
    That is where I found something both positive and negative.

    The negative is that the OEMs are not legally obliged to provide any information to Independent repairers.
    But at least the AAAA are trying to fix this MAJOR problem.

    In March 2011, the Hon David Bradbury MP, Parliamentary Secretary for Consumer Affairs and Competition Policy initiated an independent inquiry into the sharing of repair and service information in the automotive industry. This inquiry is the direct result of an approach by the AAAA to Mr Bradbury in which we detailed the potential future impact on consumer choice and competition for Australia’s 12 million car owners if the Government does not intervene to require vehicle manufacturers to share vital repair and service information outside their authorised dealer networks. We believe that data sharing by vehicle manufacturers is one of the most critical issues facing the independent aftermarket in the years ahead.
    Full info here.
  • greasybob
    Senior Member
    • May 2008
    • 1589

    #2
    Is there no Shop Key or All Data for Australian vehicles ? Are their any manufacturer web sites such as those you would use for flashing and programming that also have OEM repair information ? Usually but not always for an additional fee.

    Comment

    • brad_m
      Member
      • Dec 2012
      • 42

      #3
      We have Autodataonline.com $1100 per year. I already use that, but the info is not complete and current model info is patch work.

      We have no access at all to anything that allows us to flash or program.

      As it sits now, if we replace a power steering pump on a Mazda 2 it needs to go to a dealer to have the programing done.

      We can't even get access to basic service resets for oil data on most late model diesels. We only just got that capability for the 2008 Mazda3 diesel in the 12.4 update for modis.

      I had to turn away a service on Subaru diesel two days ago due to not being able to reset the oil dilution data.

      I do some insurance work, we had a stolen recovered Mazda 6 with no keys, I bought a full of keys etc from mazda, fitted the parts, then had to put the car on a tow truck to the mazda dealer to have the programing done. Mazda had the car for 5 days.

      I have a 2004 Ford falcon that we have changed the diff ratio and tire/wheel size. This requires the vehicle ID in the PCM to be changed to to suit so correct the speedometer and the Auto shift points. The speedometer is currently reading fast by %5 and it will tag the rev limiter in first gear before it up changes to second at WOT.

      I spoke to the dealer last week and I'm still waiting for a price to do it and time to have it done.

      We have no access to TSBs or recall information and we have no access to OEM special service tools.


      After joining this site and seeing what you guy have access to, made me realize how bad we have it here.
      Last edited by brad_m; 01-04-2013, 03:16 PM.

      Comment

      • crackerclicker
        Senior Member
        • May 2008
        • 400

        #4
        you need a group like this: http://www.nastf.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3282

        it would likely be much more effective if you could get a system in place that does not require government intervention.


        here is an idea of the oem info that is available to us in the states: http://www.nastf.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3291
        then we have 2 major companies that "copy & paste" that info into their own program: http://www.alldata.com/ http://www.mitchell1.com/pdg/odV5.html

        Comment

        • brad_m
          Member
          • Dec 2012
          • 42

          #5
          The group doing the fighting for us, the AAAA have been in contact with NASTF and have researched both the US models and the UK models dealing with the same issue.

          It is their opinion that when it is self regulated the OEMs will abuse the system and still make things difficult for us. (until more complaints are made and then the info will flow again -for a time- and the process rolls over and over) That and by the looks of it the prices vary greatly across the brands too.

          Personally I would prefer Govt intervention to regulate what is made available and to regulate for a fair and reasonable time frame and price to make the info available.
          Then every one knows where they stand and what their rights and obligations are.

          The dealers know they can't compete with us on the personal service, they can't compete on price, the only way they can compete is to with hold the needed information for us to carry out even the most basic of tasks like being to code a power steering pump on a Mazda2, or reset oil data on the current Forrester diesel, and not have access to buy special service tools for common tasks.

          Lets face it, if the OEMs where going to be fair about it, it would never have to come to this in the first place.

          We are not asking to get it for free, we just want a level playing field and then let the quality of the work and service speak the loudest.

          Comment

          • brad_m
            Member
            • Dec 2012
            • 42

            #6
            A submission made by the OEMs representing body called for "compulsory purchase of ALL SSTs and diagnostic equipment from ALL manufacturers that currently market cars in Australia" by all independent repairers if service and repair information is made available.

            I'm sorry but where does a repairer who turns over $400 000 a year get a few million dollars to do that and keep everything up to date?

            Mean while the OEM dealers only want to keep the tools etc for their brands.

            They also wanted any independent who claimed to able to service new cars with out effecting the warranty "investigated". Even though we have consumer laws that prevent the OEMs from dishonoring warranty claims on the basis that the car had been serviced by and independent.

            Comment

            • Skip
              Super Moderator
              • Apr 2008
              • 605

              #7
              This is so different it's hard to grasp. Here if I need any SST or information I can get from the dealer or the tool company. German stuff is harder though. OEM's are looking to profit from aftermarket any way they can. The dealers are the ones who try to stop it as it takes money from their shops.

              Comment

              • brad_m
                Member
                • Dec 2012
                • 42

                #8
                I often have the machine shop down the road make tools for me.

                I draw them up and he'll make them for me, in return I fill the propane bottles for his fork lift free of charge.

                But I shouldn't have to resort to that.

                Comment

                • Crusty
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2007
                  • 2450

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Skip
                  This is so different it's hard to grasp. Here if I need any SST or information I can get from the dealer or the tool company. German stuff is harder though. OEM's are looking to profit from aftermarket any way they can. The dealers are the ones who try to stop it as it takes money from their shops.
                  I think what they need are anti-trust laws so manufacturers can't create monopolies within their own kingdoms.

                  From what I understand the European manufacturers are following the "letter" of the law with NASTF so to speak by, yes, making the information available, but ONLY through their own proprietary scan tools, and the scan tools only continue to function with subscriptions to the parent corporation. Now come the question of "reasonable cost" which is very subjective. They can charge what THEY think their proprietary equipment is worth and the cost for internet subscriptions can vary widely.

                  The European manufacturers have found a very CLEVER way of CIRCUMVENTING the open release of information (I did NOT say free, I said open), which again would bring in the question of "reasonable cost".

                  They may be following the "letter" of the agreement with NASTF but they sure aren't following the spirit and intent of people being able to have their vehicles serviced properly by anyone other than their own dealerships. This even affects safety issues, not just emissions.

                  Here in Canada, we're lucky to be neighbours with our friends in the USA so AFAIC most manufacturers just consider Canada as another one of the 48 States. While our territory is vast, our population averages out to one State. I think Australia and NZ are in the same boat without a large population per square mile.

                  Why does there exist the Magnusen-Moss act and why did the Feds break up AT&T....because they were attempting to hold the population at large RANSOM.

                  Comment

                  • greasybob
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2008
                    • 1589

                    #10
                    Why car manufacturers concern them selves with what goes on in the service bays of their independently owned dealers is beyond me. I think it was a Toyoya rep who said " we're in the busines of selling vehicles and vehicle parts ". Really, by the time a new technology actually hits the road it's already a few years old and in a day of 3D image scanners and printers, backwards engineering of a product isn't as hard as it used to be. Does making it harder to get your vehicle servicd because only a dealer can perform the services really help your sales ? PAX tires anyone ? I know I'm a tech and tend to look at things differently than most and before I buy anything the first two questions are " is it service able and can I get parts for it"?

                    Comment

                    • sbreland73
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 1076

                      #11
                      I just want to chime in with one of those "Don't know how nice you have it!" - to Brad_m = while this won't help your cause, I do appreciate you sharing your experience with us all. It has helped me to be more grateful for what our government has done to help the independent shop survive. Good luck.
                      S. Breland

                      Comment

                      • brad_m
                        Member
                        • Dec 2012
                        • 42

                        #12
                        I know posting it here won't help us.
                        Some times you just need to have a whinge to any one who will listen.

                        Thanks to everyone for listening and for the comments too.


                        Seems as though I'm the only Australian here.
                        We should have an SO TechEd in my city in the next month or so.
                        I'm going to try and get some interst from the other shops here and ask the TechEd instructor to spread the word around.

                        Comment

                        • crackerclicker
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2008
                          • 400

                          #13
                          Hi Brad,

                          I've heard about your troubles before, and that's what prompted me to respond. Over on the Autonerdz site there was a thread in the "Open Discussion" forum that included a number of your neighbors chatting about this very problem. Turns out I know very little of your frustration . Anyway, take a look. Maybe you could contact some of those 'blokes', and get something started.

                          I'm pretty sure you have to do the free registration process to read this, but those boys are a pleasure to talk with.

                          Comment

                          • brad_m
                            Member
                            • Dec 2012
                            • 42

                            #14
                            Waiting for my registration to be aprroved.

                            Thanks for the tip.

                            Comment

                            • paulthepilot
                              Junior Member
                              • Oct 2012
                              • 17

                              #15
                              Euro car makers are obliged to give info by way of the Block Exemption Regulations but they will charge for it.

                              Comment

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