2006 Dodge Charger HEMI problem

[transman618]

Hey guys this is my own car I recently started having issues with. Hope someone could give me somewhere to start with it. I'm a transmission guy, not much with drivability so here it goes.

Its a 2006 Dodge Charger R/T model 5.7 HEMI 52k miles. It started missing the other day real bad. It misses only after a cold start. I start it cold, it idles fine, start driving it to the first stop sign in my subdivision. (about 1/4 mile). When I stop at the stop sign its missing, as I accelerate its missing all the way up the road. It does this EVERY time after a cold start. The other day I just sat at the stop sign and let it miss hoping it might set a code. After about 1 minute of idling and missing it just stopped missing and ran smooth. No code set. It runs fine after that all day long until the next cold start. If I start the engine cold and let it idle and warm up for 4 or 5 minutes, it wont miss. It only misses if I drive off immediately after the cold start and it will only miss for about 1 minute. I was thinking of recording a movie with my MODIS but since I'm not much into drivability I wont know much of what to look for. Since my problem is so predictable and does it on EVERY cold start I was hoping someone here could narrow it down a little.

What do you guys think??

Thanks for any help.


Charles

[Crusty]

Hey guys this is my own car I recently started having issues with. Hope someone could give me somewhere to start with it. I'm a transmission guy, not much with drivability so here it goes.

Its a 2006 Dodge Charger R/T model 5.7 HEMI 52k miles. It started missing the other day real bad. It misses only after a cold start. I start it cold, it idles fine, start driving it to the first stop sign in my subdivision. (about 1/4 mile). When I stop at the stop sign its missing, as I accelerate its missing all the way up the road. It does this EVERY time after a cold start. The other day I just sat at the stop sign and let it miss hoping it might set a code. After about 1 minute of idling and missing it just stopped missing and ran smooth. No code set. It runs fine after that all day long until the next cold start. If I start the engine cold and let it idle and warm up for 4 or 5 minutes, it wont miss. It only misses if I drive off immediately after the cold start and it will only miss for about 1 minute. I was thinking of recording a movie with my MODIS but since I'm not much into drivability I wont know much of what to look for. Since my problem is so predictable and does it on EVERY cold start I was hoping someone here could narrow it down a little.

What do you guys think??

Thanks for any help.


Charles

-----------------
Misfires won't set a code untill they are numerous enough to be over something like 8% of firing events. When you count the number of times the engine fires plugs, that's not a lot but if the misfires are at a threshold JUST under the code set trigger value (7.99999%) it won't set a code but can still feel like it's making milkshakes (LOL).
Misfires fall under two general categories. "general misfires" (code P0300), or "cyclinder specific" misfires (codes P0301, P0302, P0303, etc) for one cylinder.
See where you can find misfire data in your modis, take a movie, then take another movie, and then another. See if the misfire happens always on one cylinder or does the misfire change cylinders from day to day.
Sometimes misfire data can be in the vehicle specific datastream and sometimes you have to go into "mode $06" to find it. I hope it's information available in vehicle specific and not in mode-6 'cause that can be a royal pain to gather the information, then decifer it looking at minimum and maximum values allowed compared to the actual measured values. It can be done but it adds another level of hoop jumping to figure out --A) general misfire or -B) cylinder specific misfire and -C) which cylinder(s) are affected -D) when it happens and for how long
You've already got the "when" and the "how long"
Now we have to figure out the "who" "where" and "why".

I SUSPECT we'll find it has something to do with either plugs or injectors but there are dozens of other factors that can cause misfires.

Don't forget to check for TSBs/PSBs. Sometimes there are pattern failures already identified by the manufacturers engineering that can give us somewhere to investigate first.

HTH

[greasybob]

Kind of hard to say without any data to look at, if you could post a screen shot of general drivability data that would be great. The first thing I would look at is if this is happening in closed or open loop. It almost sounds like it's going into closed loop before the 02 sensors are ready to respond and once they fire up the condition smooths out.

[Joe Rappa]

transman, you need ot drive this car with the scanner on it to diagnose it. I want you to watch the fuel trims when it starts goofing up. If they dive to big negative numbers when it's running poorly, you need to put a set of new Dodge O2s in the front of it. The O2 heaters on Dodge vehicles often get slow. They stick at a high number, and the car hits closed loop before they are ready. The high voltages lead to a lot of fuel being taken away...enough that the car runs poorly. It's a common problem, and you described the symptoms perfectly.

If it's not that, you're still going to need the scanner to see what's going on anyway. Do a screen capture for us and post up the pics if you get a chance.

Joe

[transman618]

Ok. I'm going to do that today. I'll post 3 screen shots, one before, during and after the missing. Thank you very much for the help.


Charles

[greasybob]

If you could graph 02 sensors, fuel system open/closed, short and long term fuel trim along with engine RPM and MAP sensor, that probably would be the most useful.

[Crusty]

I checked my database at the shop today. Apparently there IS a selection on the Chrysler scan tool which will display which cylinder is misfiring.
The service manual states "Observe the WHICH CYLINDER IS MISFIRING screen and identify the cylinders that have a misfire present".
I looked at my scanner and couldn't find ANYTHINg that displayed misfire data for several Chrysler products circa 2004, 2005, 2006.
It appears the information is available but where has SnapOn hidden it??

Being able to verify if it is a general misfire or just one cylinder cuts the diagnostic time down drastically.
As the other guys have pointed out, O2 sensor readings and fuel trims can help greatly.
See what you can record and post for us to look at.

[Rich Barton]

I checked my database at the shop today. Apparently there IS a selection on the Chrysler scan tool which will display which cylinder is misfiring.
The service manual states "Observe the WHICH CYLINDER IS MISFIRING screen and identify the cylinders that have a misfire present".
I looked at my scanner and couldn't find ANYTHINg that displayed misfire data for several Chrysler products circa 2004, 2005, 2006.
It appears the information is available but where has SnapOn hidden it??

Being able to verify if it is a general misfire or just one cylinder cuts the diagnostic time down drastically.
As the other guys have pointed out, O2 sensor readings and fuel trims can help greatly.
See what you can record and post for us to look at.

Hi Crusty,

The (which CYLINDER IS MISFIRING) is in the DRB under obd2 stuff but this car is a can car using the starmobile or witech which I havent seen this in.

This is not in the snappy.
Snappy does have the misfire counter and it should be in system test but this being a can car, stuff has changed.


Transman618,

I just had an 07 Charger with a strange problem and it ended up being the power wire that feeds the fuse box under the hood being loose at the fuse box and this car only had 23,000 on it.

Also I would check the ect sensor to see if the coolant temp is right on the scan tool.
Like the other guys have stated with out a picture we are shoting in the dark.
after you show the data we can help you.

[jgarza83]

suonds to me like a sticking valve. I had a tahoe do the same thing....only when its cold. after about a minute the misfire would go away. hth

[Crusty]

Hi Crusty,

The (which CYLINDER IS MISFIRING) is in the DRB under obd2 stuff but this car is a can car using the starmobile or witech which I havent seen this in.

This is not in the snappy.
Snappy does have the misfire counter and it should be in system test but this being a can car, stuff has changed.


Transman618,

I just had an 07 Charger with a strange problem and it ended up being the power wire that feeds the fuse box under the hood being loose at the fuse box and this car only had 23,000 on it.

Also I would check the ect sensor to see if the coolant temp is right on the scan tool.
Like the other guys have stated with out a picture we are shoting in the dark.
after you show the data we can help you.

Hello Rich
I was looking in "system tests" as well as "functional tests" for any misfire data or tests and it didn't seem to be there (for several years and models in the Dodge/Chrysler selections).
The service manual made no reference to generic scan tool OBDII in the P0300 code chart (nor the p0301/302, etc)
Here is what the service manual says.....

1. CYLINDER MIS-FIRE CONDITION ACTIVE
NOTE: Check for any TSB's that apply to a Misfire condition. Review the vehicle repair history for any misfire condition repairs that have been performed.
Engine running.
Observe the WHICH CYLINDER IS MISFIRING screen and identify the cylinders that have a misfire present.

That's why I asked where is SO hiding it???

I did check to see if there was any information in the manual for any mode-$06 misfire monitors and from what I could decipher it was TID-$0C CID-$24 but that isn't in the "system tests" or "functional tests" either. There are other TID's on screen but nothing that can be identified as having anything to do with the misfire monitor.
Can you tell me where it is for this vehicle?
Thanks

[Rich Barton]

Hello Rich
I was looking in "system tests" as well as "functional tests" for any misfire data or tests and it didn't seem to be there (for several years and models in the Dodge/Chrysler selections).
The service manual made no reference to generic scan tool OBDII in the P0300 code chart (nor the p0301/302, etc)
Here is what the service manual says.....

1. CYLINDER MIS-FIRE CONDITION ACTIVE
NOTE: Check for any TSB's that apply to a Misfire condition. Review the vehicle repair history for any misfire condition repairs that have been performed.
Engine running.
Observe the WHICH CYLINDER IS MISFIRING screen and identify the cylinders that have a misfire present.

That's why I asked where is SO hiding it???

I did check to see if there was any information in the manual for any mode-$06 misfire monitors and from what I could decipher it was TID-$0C CID-$24 but that isn't in the "system tests" or "functional tests" either. There are other TID's on screen but nothing that can be identified as having anything to do with the misfire monitor.
Can you tell me where it is for this vehicle?
Thanks

Hi Crusty,
I would look in the scan data and see if there is ignition burntime pids, one for each cylinder and graph these and then you can see which one is misfiring.

[Crusty]

Hi Crusty,
I would look in the scan data and see if there is ignition burntime pids, one for each cylinder and graph these and then you can see which one is misfiring.

Hi Rich
I saw the "burn time" pids but all it says is coil-1 and coil-2 burn time. How that is going to identify which of EIGHT cylinders is misfiring is a mystery.


I called my local Chrysler dealer and spoke to the service manager who has always been very helpfull and co-operative. He stays hands-on so he stays current with developments (and doesn't hide in the office)
He says that since 2005 all of their vehicles are CAN and they are using the StarMobil scan tool. To the best of his knowledge the '04 Durango was their first CAN compliant vehicle.
When I specifically asked him regarding Misfires, he said there was a selection right on the screen that shows both the MID/TID/CID $xx along with the written description of Cyl-1-misfire or Cyl-2-misfire, etc, and it is a constant updating counter that displays misfires live and is an incrementing counter. You can select all cylinders or select individual cylinders.
No hoop jumping & not hidden.

[Crusty]

Charles (Transman)
Have you had any luck identifying any specific cylinders or lean conditions??
From what I could read in the manual misfires are 2-trip codes (unless they are severe enough to melt the Cat), so can you find any "pending" codes?

[Skip]

None of the SnapOn tools support the "Which Cyl is miss firing" feature for CAN vehicles. I have put in a request to have it added. I would guess the 11.4 release at the earliest if the feature is approved to be added.
At least it is not hidden.

Let the bashing begin.

[Crusty]

None of the SnapOn tools support the "Which Cyl is miss firing" feature for CAN vehicles. I have put in a request to have it added. I would guess the 11.4 release at the earliest if the feature is approved to be added.
At least it is not hidden.

Let the bashing begin.

Skip,
Are you referring to just Chrysler products?
09 GM show "msifire" data.
Are they not CAN also??
Which manufacturers DO Snappy dispaly misfires for and which ones DON'T they display misfires for??
Don't ALL scan tools have to display the misfire data, at least in OBDII and what are the mode-6 $xx prompts??
Some of the $xx prompts have descriptions beside them but most of them don't so if the manufacturer hasn't published the $xx mode-6 info for misfires (because it's in their CAN datastream) how are we supposed to get there from here????
Is it $A2 for cylinder-1 then $A3 for cylinder-2 (as silly as the progressing numbers seems, eg; A2 for the first cyl, then A3 for the second and A4 for the third)??